The start of some gang news ....

Talk about anything you want here.

The start of some gang news ....

Postby Myckaal on Wed, 08 Dec 2010 09:12:32 +0000

Prereset gangs that reformed:
Dark Destiny is headed by Ozy, a player that held the number one slot for most of the last year.
Blood and Desire is a reformed gang from prereset, led by Arya, the jail bust queen and chat mod.
OSX is another gang that regrouped after the reset, with their original leader, Myckaal, a current top 10 player.
The Casino is run (loosely) by Candy, who resurrected her gang after the reset.
The Clinic is led by the aptly named Dr Feel Good.
Warriors Underfire is the sixth prereset gang to reform in NeoCW, guided by the dubious judgement of The Natural.
Evolution has returned, as well, headed by long time player Mymy.

Post reset gangs:
ONE is fronted and effectively run by Digital Void, who was a top 10 player and a gang leader prereset.
Seven Sins is run by Twidget, who is currently the number one ranked player.
Dead on Arrival is led by the Space Raider.
Twisted Mindz is controlled by Helltrooper.
Coffin Cheaters is led by staffmember Dan Verton and houses many of the players who occupied DOS prereset.
BLU is basically a test lab for CW's owner/manager, Andi.
The Long Arm of the Law is a netguard-only crew founded and led by Cire.
Elite Players In Charge is commanded by Gatekeeper, a member of the staff and a great player.
Members Of The Disturbed is led by CMSjr, one of the news reporters and forum mod.
Little Aussie Battlers is under the leadership of Skipstone, another staff member.
Deep Sleepers is headed by B1nary
Freedom is fronted by it's sole member, irezumi
Cave Canem is a one man gang of Sgt J, the player formerly known as Zpeef.
Infinitesimal is a new gang headed by Jensen, who some of us remember as GameJack

There is also one deleted gang, Gang ID Number 112, and one gang that consists only of the admin of the game, Andi, GID# 113.


Now that you know the who ..... let's talk a little about the what. The question has been raised again and again "which is the best gang?" Well ... there is a partial answer to that question. At least, there is as far as pure numbers and hearsay can go ...
There are nine districts. Seeing as each gang may only control 2 of these at a time, this gives an immediate idea of who the top 5 gangs are. They'll be one of the 5 that hold one or two districts. Maintaining control of a district requires a calculation that involves all the guardians in a gang, so it's the best example of which gang has the most in stats.
To put that in slightly simpler terms: DD, 7Sins, Epic, OSX, and ONE are the top 5 gangs in the game. If any of the rest of them would like a shot at a piece of that short list, they're gonna have to work pretty damned hard for it.

What makes a gang better than one or the other, though, is a matter of taste.

I'll see what I can arrange as far as a newsworthy column goes. But first, I'll have to figure out how to dig up something newsworthy. There are no real gang rivals worth going into, and the theme gang idea seems to have gotten (inevitably) stagnant. Perhaps SOMEONE will do something in the CyberGangland that will be worth typing something up about ...
Last edited by Myckaal on Wed, 26 Jan 2011 17:51:09 +0000, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: The start of some gang news ....

Postby [OSX]-Luffy- on Thu, 09 Dec 2010 03:36:14 +0000

you should also hire an editor for your post, I swear you're worst than George W. Bush, also if your hiring him, does that mean he will get some sort of payment, in the case he does, I would like to contend for that spot :twisted:
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Re: The start of some gang news ....

Postby The Solution on Sun, 12 Dec 2010 00:33:52 +0000

k cool, I've had enough of you - you're not a good "reporter, organizer, or moderator" whatever it is you wish to call yourself, either.
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Re: The start of some gang news ....

Postby Myckaal on Mon, 03 Jan 2011 00:16:31 +0000

I've been debating on what ranks to include in the gang strength calculations. I think examining the affiliations of the top 50 ranks should be enough to get an idea of which gangs have what to offer. Each of the top ranked players bring something to the gang they're in, even if it's just lending their stats to the gang. Some of the names you already know from your attack log; others not so much. With 15158 being the last ID so far, that makes these players the top .3%. So lets take a quick look at who sits where .....

Top 50 players
ID ----- Name ------------------- Rank ----- Gang

4 / 50
10145 -- [1] Digital Void -------- 3 -------- 101
10031 -- link1n ------------------ 12 -------- 101
10586 -- |1|BlueDogAnthracite --- 42 -------- 101
10 ----- ten --------------------- 50 -------- 101

11 / 50
10022 -- [7s] Twidget ----------- 1 -------- 102
10053 -- [7s] FlasHu ------------ 6 -------- 102
10082 -- [7s]uNkn0wn ------------ 17 -------- 102
10056 -- [7S]moodlessly --------- 19 -------- 102
10017 -- [7S] Cyberjack1138 ----- 20 -------- 102
10040 -- KasparHauser ----------- 33 -------- 102
10109 -- [7S]neno_ned ----------- 34 -------- 102
10184 -- [7s]GolD --------------- 36 -------- 102
10129 -- [7S] Shogoth ----------- 39 -------- 102
10593 -- [7S]Sparky ------------- 40 -------- 102
10681 -- [7s] nemovc ------------ 47 -------- 102

8 / 50
10019 -- ShOzTron {DD} ---------- 2 -------- 103
10023 -- {DD}Maggie mee --------- 14 -------- 103
10099 -- {DD}pedro -------------- 15 -------- 103
10361 -- Sha{DD}ow -------------- 16 -------- 103
10961 -- {DD} Sabertooth -------- 22 -------- 103
10061 -- {DD}MCKiller ----------- 26 -------- 103
10148 -- {DD}OminousDarkness ---- 38 -------- 103
10049 -- {DD} Melka ------------- 45 -------- 103

1 / 50
10144 -- nobsta ----------------- 44 -------- 104

6 / 50
10270 -- [OSX] Buddy Snags ------ 5 -------- 105
10118 -- [OSX] Myckaal ---------- 8 -------- 105
10157 -- |OSX| Marcus ----------- 10 -------- 105
10137 -- Future[OSX]RAWR -------- 11 -------- 105
10093 -- |OSX|Purple Nerple|DbD| 32 -------- 105
10277 -- [OSX] Mod -------------- 35 -------- 105

10 / 50
11 ----- Da Bears are EPIC ------ 4 -------- 115
10015 -- Mentor is EPIC --------- 7 -------- 115
10048 -- Mr.Hat ----------------- 9 -------- 115
10193 -- Hung like Apollo1 ------ 13 -------- 115
10003 -- Snowy Bolognie --------- 18 -------- 115
10058 -- DaFreeK ---------------- 21 -------- 115
10037 -- crazy.EPIC.nut --------- 24 -------- 115
10089 -- Phildo ----------------- 27 -------- 115
11216 -- harry the EPIC longbone 29 -------- 115
14359 -- EPIC Doomy ------------- 43 -------- 115

3 / 50
10178 -- [AD]Ghost Prototype ---- 41 -------- 111
10107 -- Dicki Vake ------------- 46 -------- 111
10085 -- Elementality ----------- 49 -------- 111

1 / 50
10059 -- [EVO]mymy. ------------- 31 -------- 122

What does this have to do with gang news?

- Seven Sins has the most members in the top 50 with 11 of the total, the biggest of whom is the leader and number 1 killer in the game, Twidget. This is a good thing for 7S, for obvious reasons. It makes them more likely to win gang wars, regardless of the opposing gang's size.
- EPIC has 10 members in the top 50 rankers, most of whom are in the top 30. Gatekeeper's 334 levels testify to the gang's ability to hack, with Mentor and Hat backing the statement.
- Dark Destiny Still has 8 members ranked in the top .3%, with Oz leading the group at level 424. They don't do as many kills as a gang as they used to, but the ones that do, do a lot.
- OSX has 6 players in the top 50 for level, all of which are in the upper 35 players, with 3 of them on the monuments for level.
- ONE's still maintains 4 members in the top leveling ranks, including 3rd highest killer, Digital Void.
Now, it occurs to me that I spend a lot of time discussing the top 5 gangs, while there are other smaller but no less determined gangs, as well. So with that in mind, let's look at the other three gangs that also make up the 44 gang members currently in the top 50; Blood and Desire, Evolution, and the Coffin Chasers.
- BAD has but a single member, nobsta, in the top 50, but he's a longtime player and loyal member of the hive-mind. BAD was founded half a decade ago by the now semi-active Jen (one of the prereset top five, and the cutest one of them, too), and is headed by her heir apparent, Arya, the Jail Bust Angel. Don't underestimate the quiet girl in orange, though. She can surprise you. She employs a rather passive method of advancement, rather than sit in front of her PC, endlessly refreshing kills to stay ahead.
- Evolution, like BAD, only has one member in the top 50; their leader, mymy. He's also ranked in the top 50 for level, too. Still waiting to see what this gang is going to do. They seem to be active but, again like BAD, they're quiet.
- Then there's Dan Verton's band, Coffin Chasers, which has 3 members in the top 50. Originally started as a post-reset DOS, they have gone a different direction. Considering the minds that reside here, we should be seeing more from them.


The Districts

Wargrounds and Governmental
Owned By: Dark Destiny

Badlands and University
Owned By: Seven Sins

Downtown and Residential
Owned By: ONE

Career District
Owned By: Elite Players In Charge

Underground
Owned By: OSX

Community
Owned By: Little Aussie Battlers

And for those of you who still don't know what stakes the districts hold, the District Bonuses are as follows:

CAREER + 10% CPU
WARGROUNDS + 10% RAM
BADLANDS + 10% BUS
COMMUNITY +3% CPU, BUS, RAM, HDD
RESIDENTIAL + 10% HDD
UNIVERSITY + 50 IQ
GOVERNMENTAL + 20% cash from hacks and you also won't lose money kept in hand
DOWNTOWN + 5% Firewall
UNDERGROUND + 50 Hacking Skill

-- Monuments --
DD continues to hold the top spots in the gang monuments for, of course, hoarding assets. "Richest gang" in webs, ECs, and cash. It would appear that their lead is slipping, though, as the still-alive hive mind of BAD is within a few hundred ECs of overtaking them in that category. And in the 'Most webs' collumn, Seven Sins has gotten within a quarter million webs of passing DD (Twidget is maxed out on capacity scouts, so I'm sure it won't be long), as well, with EPIC needing another three quarters of a mil to jump past them. Dark Destiny still holds the front-line for gang levels, with ONE a mere 116 levels behind them, and OSX 131 levels behind Void and crew.
Last edited by Myckaal on Wed, 26 Jan 2011 17:33:45 +0000, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The start of some gang news ....

Postby [EVO]DrOwl. on Mon, 03 Jan 2011 21:09:23 +0000

Thanks for the news Myckaal, Its nice to see news updates like this keep it up ;)


"Evolution has returned," Ya =)
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Re: The start of some gang news ....

Postby Myckaal on Mon, 10 Jan 2011 02:02:11 +0000

Showing the top 100 active and inactive players
Rank ..... Name ..... ..... ..... Team ..... ..... Gang ..... Active Rank
#1 ..... [7s] Twidget ..... ..... ..... Net Guards ..... 102 ..... 1
#2 ..... [1] Digital Void ..... ..... ..... Hackers ..... ..... 101 ..... 2
#3 ..... ShOzTron {DD} ..... ..... ..... Hackers ..... ..... 103 ..... 3
#4 ..... Pssst...boop! Hehe[OSX] ..... Net Guards ..... 105 ..... 4
#5 ..... Royal wedding?Who cares ..... Hackers ..... ..... 115 ..... 5
#6 ..... [7s] FlasHu ..... ..... ..... Hackers ..... ..... 102 ..... 6
#7 ..... [OSX] Myckaal ..... ..... ..... Net Guards ..... 105 ..... 7
#8 ..... |OSX| Foamy Squirrel ..... Hackers ..... ..... 105 ..... 8
#9 ..... Corey[OSX]RAWR ..... ..... Hackers ..... ..... 105 ..... 9
#10 ..... Mentor is not EPIC ..... ..... Hackers ..... ..... 115 ..... 10

#11 ..... Mr.Hat ..... ..... ..... ..... Net Guards ..... 115 ..... 11
#12 ..... link1n ..... ..... ..... ..... Hackers ..... ..... 101 ..... 12
#13 ..... {DD}pedro ..... ..... ..... ..... Hackers ..... ..... 103 ..... 13
#14 ..... ihacku ..... ..... ..... ..... Net Guards ..... None ..... 14
#15 ..... [7S]moodlessly ..... ..... ..... Net Guards ..... 102 ..... 15
#16 ..... [7s]uNkn0wn ..... ..... ..... Net Guards ..... 102 ..... 16
#17 ..... Hung like Apollo1 ..... ..... Hackers ..... ..... None ..... inactive
#18 ..... {DD}Maggie mee ..... ..... Hackers ..... ..... 103 ..... inactive
#19 ..... DaFreeK ..... ..... ..... ..... Net Guards ..... 115 ..... 17
#20 ..... Sha{DD}ow ..... ..... ..... Hackers ..... ..... 103 ..... 18

#21 ..... Snowy Bolognie ..... ..... ..... Hackers ..... ..... None ..... inactive
#22 ..... [EVO]mymy. ..... ..... ..... Hackers ..... ..... 122 ..... 19
#23 ..... [7S]neno_ned ..... ..... ..... Hackers ..... ..... 102 ..... 20
#24 ..... [OSX] Mod ..... ..... ..... Hackers ..... ..... 105 ..... 21
#25 ..... crazy.EPIC.nut ..... ..... ..... Hackers ..... ..... 115 ..... 22
#26 ..... born2hack ..... ..... ..... Net Guards ..... 102 ..... 23
#27 ..... [7s]GolD ..... ..... ..... ..... Net Guards ..... 102 ..... 24
#28 ..... {DD} Sabertooth ..... ..... Hackers ..... ..... 103 ..... 25
#29 ..... KasparHauser ..... ..... ..... Net Guards ..... 102 ..... 26
#30 ..... [OSX]-Prince- ..... ..... ..... Net Guards ..... 105 ..... 27

#31 ..... [7S] Cyberjack1138 ..... ..... Hackers ..... ..... 102 ..... 28
#32 ..... Stellar ..... ..... ..... ..... Hackers ..... ..... None ..... 29
#33 ..... EPIC Booby ..... ..... ..... Hackers ..... ..... 115 ..... 30
#34 ..... [1]MCK ..... ..... ..... ..... Hackers ..... ..... 101 ..... 31
#35 ..... Phildo ..... ..... ..... ..... Hackers ..... ..... 115 ..... 32
#36 ..... harry the EPIC longbone ..... Net Guards ..... 115 ..... 33
#37 ..... {DD} Spyder ..... ..... ..... Net Guards ..... None ..... inactive
#38 ..... iluminaire{DD} ..... ..... ..... Net Guards ..... None ..... inactive
#39 ..... [1]safetyrazor ..... ..... ..... Hackers ..... ..... None ..... inactive
#40 ..... |OSX|Purple Nerple|DbD| ..... Hackers ..... ..... 105 ..... 34

#41 ..... nobsta ..... ..... ..... ..... Net Guards ..... 104 ..... 35
#42 ..... [7S] Shogoth ..... ..... ..... Hackers ..... ..... 102 ..... 36
#43 ..... [7S]Sparky ..... ..... ..... Hackers ..... ..... 102 ..... 37
#44 ..... Lady Of DoA~s Lake ..... ..... Net Guards ..... None ..... inactive
#45 ..... Dan The Shrubber. ..... ..... Hackers ..... ..... 115 ..... 38
#46 ..... {DD}OminousDarkness ..... Net Guards ..... 103 ..... inactive
#47 ..... [7s] nemovc ..... ..... ..... Hackers ..... ..... 102 ..... 39
#48 ..... [AD]Ghost Prototype ..... ..... Net Guards ..... 111 ..... inactive
#49 ..... |1|BlueDogAnthracite ..... Net Guards ..... 101 ..... inactive
#50 ..... Elementality [OSX] ..... ..... Hackers ..... ..... 105 ..... 40

#51 ..... {DD} Melka ..... ..... ..... Hackers ..... ..... 103 ..... 41
#52 ..... Dicki Vake ..... ..... ..... Hackers ..... ..... 111 ..... 42
#53 ..... [OSX]Stephanie Harley ..... Hackers ..... ..... 105 ..... 43
#54 ..... (OSX) JESUS FREAK ..... ..... Hackers ..... ..... 105 ..... 44
#55 ..... [7s]Sollice ..... ..... ..... Hackers ..... ..... None ..... inactive
#56 ..... ten ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... Net Guards ..... 101 ..... inactive
#57 ..... Mark ..... ..... ..... ..... Net Guards ..... 106 ..... inactive
#58 ..... [EPIC]*TW*Gabba Gabba ..... Net Guards ..... 115 ..... 45
#59 ..... Slartibartfarst ..... ..... ..... Net Guards ..... 104 ..... 46
#60 ..... Dragonowl [1] ..... ..... ..... Hackers ..... ..... 101 ..... 47

17 Current Gangs (5 deleted)
Gangs with members: Gang Level ID ..... ..... ..... Overall Member Rankings ..... ..... .....
in the top 60. , . , . , . , . , . , . , . , . , . , . , . top 60 top 50 top 40 top 30 top 20 top 10
ONE , . , . , . , . , . , . , . , (Level: 1140) 101 ..... 6 ..... 4 ..... 3 ..... 2 ..... 2 ..... 1
Seven Sins, . , . , . , . , . , (Level: 919) 102 ..... 12 ..... 12 ..... 9 ..... 8 ..... 4 ..... 2
Dark Destiny . , . , , . , . , (Level: 1100) 103 ..... 7 ..... 6 ..... 5 ..... 4 ..... 2 ..... 1
Blood And Desire, . , . , . , (Level: 247) 104 ..... 2 ..... 1 ..... 0 ..... 0 ..... 0 ..... 0
OSX. , . , . , , . , . , . , . , (Level: 960) 105 ..... 10 ..... 8 ..... 7 ..... 6 ..... 4 ..... 4
CandyLand, . , . , . , . , . , (Level: 41) 106 ..... 1 ..... 0 ..... 0 ..... 0 ..... 0 ..... 0
Coffin Cheaters , . , . , . , (Level: 13) 111 ..... 2 ..... 1 ..... 0 ..... 0 ..... 0 ..... 0
E P I C , . , . , . , . , . , . , (Level: 456) 115 ..... 10 ..... 9 ..... 8 ..... 5 ..... 4 ..... 2
Evolution. , . , . , . , . , . , (Level: 257) 122 ..... 1 ..... 1 ..... 1 ..... 1 ..... 0 ..... 0

The other 8 gangs do not have any members in the top 60

District Holdings:
The possession of the various districts has remained static for a few months now. Perhaps in the future, admin will come up with a way to make it more difficult to hold a district the longer you hold it. Until then the districts and their bonuses are as follows:

Wargrounds and Governmental... Dark Destiny (103)(+ 10% RAM), (+ 20% cash from hacks and you also won't lose money kept in hand)
Community and Career District... Elite Players In Charge (115)(+3% CPU, BUS, RAM, HDD) (+ 10% CPU)
Residential and Downtown........ ONE (101)(+ 10% HDD)(+ 5% Firewall)
University and Badlands........... Seven Sins (102)(+ 10% BUS)(+ 50 IQ)
Underground........................ OSX (105)(+ 50 Hacking Skill)

-- Mon, 30 Jan 2012 00:45:23 +0000 --
Last edited by Myckaal on Mon, 30 Jan 2012 00:46:36 +0000, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The start of some gang news ....

Postby Legendary Hat on Mon, 10 Jan 2011 02:07:58 +0000

CW News vs Gang News:

Gang News hacks CW News for 1337 damage! (-1336 left)

Gang News is the winner!

Good stuff Myck
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Re: The start of some gang news ....

Postby [7s] Twidget on Mon, 10 Jan 2011 02:24:18 +0000

Very good stuff!

Are you reading this, CMS? This is how it should be done!
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Re: The start of some gang news ....

Postby Puppet Master on Mon, 10 Jan 2011 04:33:54 +0000

Due to people complaining i will be changing my wording.



SCREW YOU twidy. :}

adn your 1080P equipment.
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Re: The start of some gang news ....

Postby Myckaal on Mon, 17 Jan 2011 15:39:36 +0000

removed
Last edited by Myckaal on Wed, 26 Jan 2011 17:31:58 +0000, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The start of some gang news ....

Postby [1] Digital Void on Tue, 18 Jan 2011 02:20:34 +0000

Nice work Myck.

Seems the newspaper boy CMS could learn a few things from you
Move along numpty!
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Re: The start of some gang news ....

Postby [OSX]-Luffy- on Wed, 19 Jan 2011 04:52:32 +0000

[1] Digital Void wrote:Nice work Myck.

Seems the newspaper boy CMS could learn a few things from you



agreed, such as posting news?
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Re: The start of some gang news ....

Postby Myckaal on Mon, 07 Feb 2011 03:06:15 +0000

First ... some stats:

Current Gangs:
ONE - (Level: 971)
Seven Sins - (Level: 689)
Dark Destiny - (Level: 1059)
Blood And Desire - (Level: 196)
OSX - (Level: 853)
The Casino - (Level: 41)
Dead on Arrival - (Level: 580)
The Clinic - (Level: 7)
Twisted Mindz - (Level: 236)
Warriors Underfire - (Level: 382)
Coffin Cheaters - (Level: 13)
BLU - (Level: 0)
The Long Arm of the Law - (Level: 306)

Elite Players In Charge - (Level: 336)
Members Of The Disturbed - (Level: 48)
Freedom - (Level: 0)
Cave Canem - (Level: 13)
Heaven - (Level: 76)
Evolution - (Level: 47)


Gang Monuments
-Richest Gang(Cyber-Dollars)
Dark Destiny (103)
Twisted Mindz (109)
Blood And Desire (104)
Coffin Cheaters (111)
ONE (101)
-Richest Gang(Websites)
Seven Sins (102)
Dark Destiny (103)
Elite Players In Charge (115)
Heaven (121)
OSX (105)
-Richest Gang(Energy Charges)
Blood And Desire (104)
Dark Destiny (103)
Coffin Cheaters (111)
ONE (101)
Twisted Mindz (109)
-Highest Levels
Dark Destiny (103)
ONE (101)
OSX (105)
Seven Sins (102)
Dead on Arrival (107)


Districts
Wargrounds and Governmental... Dark Destiny (103)(+ 10% RAM), (+ 20% cash from hacks and you also won't lose money kept in hand)
Community and Career District... Elite Players In Charge (115)(+3% CPU, BUS, RAM, HDD) (+ 10% CPU)
Residential and Downtown........ ONE (101)(+ 10% HDD)(+ 5% Firewall)
University and Badlands........... Seven Sins (102)(+ 10% BUS)(+ 50 IQ)
Underground........................ OSX (105)(+ 50 Hacking Skill)

_________________________________________________________

Now ... what does all this mean? As predicted, Seven Sins has passed Dark Destiny in the Websites hoarding area, thanks in large part to Twidget's max capacity scouts, one would surmise. And BAD has jumped into the lead as the top EC stockpiler. Dark Destiny maintains their position as the wealthiest gang. And that's the top end of the monuments in a nutshell.

ID.... Name............ Rank Gang
10022 [7s] Twidget..... 1 102
10053 [7s] FlasHu...... 6 102
10082 [7s]uNkn0wn..... 16 102
10056 [7S]moodlessly.. 18 102

10019 ShOzTron {DD}... 2 103
10099 {DD}pedro........ 13 103
10023 {DD}Maggie mee.. 15 103
10361 Sha{DD}ow....... 17 103

10145 [1] Digital Void.. 3 101
10031 link1n............. 11 101

11.... [EPIC]Gatekeeper 4 115
10015 Mentor is EPIC... 7 115
10048 Mr.Hat........... 9 115
10193 Hung like Apollo1 14 115
10003 Snowy Bolognie.. 19 115

10270 [OSX] is bad..... 5 105
10118 [OSX] Myckaal... 8 105
10157 |OSX| Marcus.... 10 105
10137 Corey[OSX]RAWR.. 12 105

-- Mon, 07 Feb 2011 03:07:02 +0000 --

Sorry ... I've been sick, otherwise I'd have updated this a while ago.
Last edited by Myckaal on Mon, 07 Feb 2011 10:06:53 +0000, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The start of some gang news ....

Postby KasparHauser on Mon, 07 Feb 2011 07:48:54 +0000

the yellow font colour makes it hard to read
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Re: The start of some gang news ....

Postby jinius on Wed, 02 Mar 2011 20:58:08 +0000

Interesting stuff... and legible too :D

Suggestion - synopsis of each gang - a breakdown on gang ethos, activity, members - and a more in depth of the gang...?

Personally I would find this very interesting and I believe it would also aid new-comers in deciding which Gang to join, rather than have them gang-hopping... which just annoying!
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